How should stats work? (Now contains my stat system in post #3)

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By Sanglorian 10 Nov 2016 02:43

Champion · 491 comments

Hi folks,

Spun off from the SPRINT! thread.

At this point in time, we know that we have six stats:

Attack
Defence
Special Attack
Special Defence
HP
Speed

When you use a physical technique (one that makes contact in melee, like a punch, kick, sword strike, hammer blow, etc), you compare your Attack to the opponent's Defence.

When you use a special technique (one that doesn't make contact, like an arrow shot, fire breath, psychic assault, etc), you compare your Special Attack to the opponent's Special Defence.

HP determines how much damage you can take before you faint.

Speed determines who goes first in battle.

What we haven't determined yet is:

1. What values should monster stats be (including what influences those values, like your level, what items you've equipped, etc.) and
2. What the exact formulas are for these interactions (e.g., how much randomness should there be, how do you do determine how much damage is done by an attack, etc.)

So this thread is an opportunity to talk about those things.

In the interim, I've suggested that we describe what a monster's stats should be like, using the words "Terrible", "Bad", "Average", "Good" and "Great". That way, we don't have to waste time assigning values to them that are definitely going to change.

Last edited by Sanglorian (27 Nov 2016 03:18)

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By benneti 11 Nov 2016 18:17

Member · 38 comments

I think it would also be good to be able to have this option for the average of the monster, too (as xirsoi pointed out).
Because one thing I liked in Pokemon is that not all monsters are equalli good and you get a reward for capturing a rare or hard to capture monster or evolving a monster wich is hard to evolve.

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By Sanglorian 27 Nov 2016 03:17

Champion · 491 comments

Hi folks,

Here's my proposal for how stats should work.

Here are my aims:
1. When two tuxemon of equal level face off against one another, one should be defeated on approximately the third turn, unless one has clearly set up a substantial advantage.
2. There should be an element of randomness.
3. A tuxemon's stats should be based on four things: their level, their training, their individual characteristics and their species.

Species Stats
Each species is identified as being "Terrible", "Bad", "Average", "Good" or "Great" in each of six stats:

Speed
Melee
Armour (against Melee)
Ranged
Dodge (against Ranged)
HP

A formula is used to calculate the species stats from there, with the averages as below:

36 = the first morph of two- or three-stage morphs
40 = the second morph of three-stage morphs; one-stage morphs
44 = the second morph of two-stage morphs; the third morph of three-stage morphs; one-stage morphs (unique)

Experience
At the end of each battle, for each tuxemon that participated, tick off each of the following:

* The tuxemon acted first in the turn (Speed Experience)
* The tuxemon made a Melee attack (Melee Experience)
* The tuxemon was the target of a Melee attack (Armour Experience)
* The tuxemon made a Ranged attack (Ranged Experience)
* The tuxemon was the target of a Ranged attack (Dodge Experience)
* The tuxemon was reduced to 3/4 HP or lower (HP Experience)

The tuxemon gains one experience of the relevant stat for each that it can tick.

A tuxemon's maximum experience of all stats put together is (all Species Stats added together)/2*(level/100)). A tuxemon's maximum experience in any one stat is equal to that (Species Stat*(level/100)).

Once a tuxemon reaches maximum overall experience, it doesn't gain any more from battle. But if it is given an item that increases experience, it loses experience from stats at random until it has enough for it to gain the experience from that item.

Tastes

A tuxemon has two tastes, a warm one and a cold one. The warm one increases its associated stat by 10%. The cold one decreases its associated stat by 10%. There are no tastes associated with HP.

+ Speed: Peppy
- Speed: Mild
+ Melee: Salty
- Melee: Sweet
+ Armour: Hearty
- Armour: Soft
+ Ranged: Zesty
- Ranged: Flakey
+ Dodge: Refined
- Dodge: Dry

A tuxemon can have a warm and a cold taste affecting the same stat, resulting in no net change.

A tuxemon's tastes also determines what foods it likes (if we implement food).

All foods are associated with one warm taste and one cold one.

If both tastes match, the tuxemon has a Great preference for the food. If one matches, a Good preference. If no matches, an Average preference.

If the tastes are the opposite (for example, a Peppy and Dry tuxemon eats a Dull and Refined meal), it is a Bad or Terrible preference depending on whether both tastes are opposite, or just one.

Final Stats
A tuxemon's stats are calculated using the following formula:

(((Species Stat + Stat Experience) * level/20)+(Species Stat/3) * (0.9 for a cold taste, 1.0 for no taste, 1.1 for a warm taste))
(rounded to the nearest integer)

Damage
All moves have a Base Power between 0% and 50%.

Damage is calculated using the following formula:

(level * Final Melee/Ranged Stat * (Base Power * (level+100)) * other multipliers * random number between 0.85 and 1.15)/target's Armour/Dodge stat 
(rounded to the nearest integer)

Other multipliers include:

* x2 if it has a type weakness
* x0.5 if it has a type strength
* x1.5 if it's a critical hit
* x1.5 if the attacker's type is the same as the technique's type (Type-Synergy, or TS)

Critical Hit
Unless otherwise specified, an attack has a 1/8 chance of being a critical hit, in which case it does 1.5 damage.

---

What do you think? I'll put together a spreadsheet where you can test the numbers out for yourselves.

Last edited by Sanglorian (27 Nov 2016 04:52)

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By Sanglorian 29 Nov 2016 00:21

Champion · 491 comments

Temporary stat changes
I hadn't discussed these before.

Stats can be adjusted in battle by "steps up" and "steps down".

At step 0, the stat is multiplied by "3/3", in other words there is no change.

For each step up, increase the numerator by one.

For each step down, increase the denominator by one.

(This is a smaller change than the equivalent in other monster catching games, which allows us to have more techniques that move stats up and down steps, and have techniques that move stats up and down by more steps).

You cannot move beyond +6 steps or -6 steps.

At this point in time, we don't have the concept of Accuracy. All techniques hit 100% of the time (although some effects only happen X% of the time). This may be something we want to change.

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By ShadowApex 30 Nov 2016 20:08

Lead Developer · 374 comments

This is an awesome writeup, Sanglorian! I'm also fond of the idea of changing the stat names to the ones you suggested (Ranged instead of Sp. Attack, Melee instead of Attack, etc.). What are your thoughts on a "Luck" stat or something similar that affect critical hit rates?

I also really like the experience system. I've always liked stat systems that grow based on your usage (e.g. Elders Scrolls style).

All-in-all I love the rest of the stat systems you've come up with. My only thoughts right now on it is if we should add or change more of the system to better differentiate the Tuxemon stat system from the Pokemon series. Things like Type Synergy (great name by the way!) is very much similar to STAB (same type attack bonus) in Pokemon.


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By Sanglorian 8 Dec 2016 10:47

Champion · 491 comments

Thanks ShadowApex!

I'm not opposed to a Luck stat, but it would need some sorting out.

1. How much of an advantage is a higher stat? For Melee/Ranged, having double the stat means doing double the damage with techniques of that stat. Would doubling your Luck end up doubling your average damage? If so, why not just double their Melee or Ranged instead? If not, why would increasing Luck be preferred to increasing Melee or Ranged?

2. What does Luck represent in the narrative? Melee and Ranged are pretty obvious, you can look at a monster and have a fairly good idea of what stats make sense for it ... but are there some monsters who look more or less likely to crit?

3. What new strategies and tactics would having Luck open up?

So I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on those, but one idea I came up with is: if crits always hit, or always go before other attacks regardless of Speed, or ignore negative stat adjustments, or some combination of those, then that might represent a valid alternative tactic. Doubling Melee will double your average damage; doubling Luck will increase average damage, but not double it , but it will give you some extra benefit on every crit.

---
EDIT:

It's a tricky question, how similar/dissimilar it should be to Pokemon. I'm definitely open to changing it further, but I don't think we'd have to. Ditching Type Synergy/STAB might be worth doing - maybe it makes more sense with 20 types than with 5.

Last edited by Sanglorian (8 Dec 2016 10:49)

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By ShadowApex 8 Dec 2016 22:51

Lead Developer · 374 comments

Yeah, I'm not necessarily for the "Luck" stat one way or the other. I was just thinking of maybe including some system that would influence the critical hit rate. Could be a stat, items, or anything. Another name for the stat could alternatively be something like "Accuracy", "Veracity", or "Precision". Either way, I think it might actually be simpler to exclude the "Luck" stat for now. We can always introduce it in the future if there's compelling reasons.

Here's my response to your questions though, if we later decide to include something like "Luck":

Sanglorian wrote

1. How much of an advantage is a higher stat? For Melee/Ranged, having double the stat means doing double the damage with techniques of that stat. Would doubling your Luck end up doubling your average damage? If so, why not just double their Melee or Ranged instead? If not, why would increasing Luck be preferred to increasing Melee or Ranged?

In terms of average damage I would propose that doubling your Luck would also double your average damage. Why you would increase Luck instead of Melee and/or Ranged could have a few different benefits:

  • Some techniques could have special effects if they critically hit.
  • Raising luck would affect average damage across both Melee and Ranged.

Of course, since raising luck would affect both Melee and Ranged average damage, there might be some tweaking needed for balance.

Sanglorian wrote

2. What does Luck represent in the narrative? Melee and Ranged are pretty obvious, you can look at a monster and have a fairly good idea of what stats make sense for it ... but are there some monsters who look more or less likely to crit?

This could vary. I think if the stat was called "Precision" or "Veracity", it might be easier to associate it with different kinds of monsters. An "archer" like monster might have a high precision.

Sanglorian wrote

3. What new strategies and tactics would having Luck open up?

Certain techniques could have extra effects based on critical hit. It could also allow you to spec monsters into using a combination of both ranged and melee techniques.

Sanglorian wrote

It's a tricky question, how similar/dissimilar it should be to Pokemon. I'm definitely open to changing it further, but I don't think we'd have to. Ditching Type Synergy/STAB might be worth doing - maybe it makes more sense with 20 types than with 5.

Yeah, I think excluding or changing up how STAB works would be interesting.


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By Sanglorian 20 Apr 2017 12:21

Champion · 491 comments
Sanglorian wrote

Experience
At the end of each battle, for each tuxemon that participated, tick off each of the following:

* The tuxemon acted first in the turn (Speed Experience)
* The tuxemon made a Melee attack (Melee Experience)
* The tuxemon was the target of a Melee attack (Armour Experience)
* The tuxemon made a Ranged attack (Ranged Experience)
* The tuxemon was the target of a Ranged attack (Dodge Experience)
* The tuxemon was reduced to 3/4 HP or lower (HP Experience)

The tuxemon gains one experience of the relevant stat for each that it can tick.

A tuxemon's maximum experience of all stats put together is (all Species Stats added together)/2*(level/100)). A tuxemon's maximum experience in any one stat is equal to that (Species Stat*(level/100)).

Once a tuxemon reaches maximum overall experience, it doesn't gain any more from battle. But if it is given an item that increases experience, it loses experience from stats at random until it has enough for it to gain the experience from that item.

I'm unhappy with this system because stuff like Speed Experience is a positive feedback mechanism - the faster you are, the faster you become - while HP Experience is a negative feedback mechanism - the hardier you are, the less likely you are to fall below 3/4 HP.

I'm suggesting the following system in its place. I like that this alternative rewards you for seeking out challenging fights with powerful tuxemon. Let me know what you think:

At the end of each battle, for each tuxemon that participated, compare that tuxemon's stats to each tuxemon that they faced in battle. For each stat that was higher for each tuxemon that they faced, they gain one Experience in that stat.

For example, the protagonist's Memnomnom with Speed 20 and Melee 30 faces a wild Spighter with Speed 30 and Melee 25. At the end of the battle, the Memnomnom gets one Speed Experience (its Speed was lower than the Spighter's) but no Melee Experience (its Melee is higher than the Spighter's).

A tuxemon's maximum experience of all stats put together is (all Species Stats added together)/2*(level/100)). A tuxemon's maximum experience in any one stat is equal to that (Species Stat*(level/100)).

Once a tuxemon reaches maximum overall experience, it doesn't gain any more from battle. But if it is given an item that increases experience, it loses experience from stats at random until it has enough for it to gain the experience from that item.

Last edited by Sanglorian (20 Apr 2017 12:22)