Playing around with types

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By Sanglorian 10 Dec 2015 10:47

Champion · 491 comments

ShadowApex and Leo started talking about types in the "Monsters, trainers concepts" thread, but I thought it made sense to fork it since it's a topic of general interest. They wrote:

ShadowApex wrote
Leo wrote

About the types, my opinion is to keep it at five type plus a neutral one (normal), and add a secondary type system, which would be something like repair/elemental/error (like the white, red, dark magic).
Then a creature has either a main type (or neutral) and may have a secondary type.
It would be preferable to avoid a messy proliferation of types like in pkmn.
Everything else could be special effects/power unrelated to types (e.g. poison).

I think this might be an interesting mechanic, and would keep the cycle of elements pure. What were you thinking in regards to super effectiveness of secondary types? Would they operate in the same way as the primary types?

I too have been thinking about types. I feel like the powerful advantage of the Wu Xing is its elegance and completeness. I think if you are going to have it, you have to have it in its exact pentagon-pentacle form. If you corrupt it, then you might as well not have it at all.

So I think the secondary type system Leo proposes makes sense.

One option would be for the secondary types to also form a pentagon-pentacle shape. One I came up with was:

Psychic feeds Ghost
Ghost inspires Fighting (e.g. spirit ancestors)
Fighting can't reach Flying/Wind
Wind blows futilely against Rock
Rock is repelled by the forcefield of Psychic

Psychic controls Fighting
Fighting breaks Rock (like a strike that breaks a block)
Rock entombs Ghost
Ghost follows Wind
Wind ducks around Psychic

I'll be the first to admit that it lacks the simplicity and obviousness of the original Wu Xing! And we probably don't need Earth, Rock AND Metal.

Another thing that I was thinking about was the fact that it's moves that are super-effective against TXMN. You could have types for moves that no TXMN has; it's even (hypothetically) possible for all move types to be different from all TXMN types.

For example, you could have a Poison move type despite no TXMN having the Poison type. It could be super-effective against Wood and Earth and not very effective against Metal and Water. That would reflect that many attacks are poisonous, but having a poisonous attack doesn't make you immune to other poisons. Or the other way around: Flying type TXMN, but no Flying moves. They might have 1/2 from Earth moves but x2 from Fire moves.

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By Sanglorian 19 Dec 2015 07:49

Champion · 491 comments

Here are some example move-only types:

Sound - x2 vs Water, 1/2 vs Metal (sound waves are amplified by water; metal is a type of music)
Electric - x2 vs Water, 1/2 vs Earth (conductivity, grounding)
Wind - x2 vs Wood, 1/2 vs Fire (wind often topples trees, but only fans flames)
Psychic - x2 vs Metal, 1/2 vs Water (psychics bend metal spoons, but water draws them when they dowse for it)

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By ShadowApex 20 Dec 2015 08:02

Lead Developer · 374 comments

I too like the idea of move-only types. The "Sound" type is especially interesting.


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By Sanglorian 6 Feb 2016 13:22

Champion · 491 comments
Sanglorian wrote

Another thing that I was thinking about was the fact that it's moves that are super-effective against TXMN. You could have types for moves that no TXMN has; it's even (hypothetically) possible for all move types to be different from all TXMN types.

As it turns out, I found an example of this: in Telefang 2, there is no cross-over between attack types and "habitat types" (i.e. the types a monster has): http://telefang.wikia.com/wiki/Habitat_types

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By xirsoi 8 Dec 2016 02:41

Champion · 66 comments

I was toying with the Monster Maker that ShadowApex released today and was making Pairagrin when I remembered this discussion and the potential of adding a "normal" Tuxemon type.

I'd like to add a vote for a Normal type (imagine it in the center of the Wu Xing, representing an even blend of all elements, none of the strengths but none of the weaknesses either). My Pairagrin concept is a Tuxemon that is fast, but a little fragile. Very good at melee, but is abysmal at range (i imagine it receiving no ranged abilities, it would rely on moving in quickly and retreating to range).

None of the current types make any sense for this concept.


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By Sanglorian 8 Dec 2016 06:00

Champion · 491 comments

Fast, violent and fragile sounds to me like a fire type, flickering in and out of battle like a flame.

I think the trick with just five types is for us to think about them metaphorically - just like the Wu Xing does. Fire could mean hot-headedness, or fiery passion, or a warm kindness.

Some of the type associations are described on the wiki:
https://wiki.tuxemon.org/index.php?titl … ype.28s.29

In terms of game design, I think having a Normal type doesn't add to the choices a player has. A player can already pursue a balanced strategy by having tuxemon of all five types on their team. Including a Normal type tuxemon on your team isn't any more balanced or neutral than having a mixed team.

What do other people think?

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By tamashihoshi 9 Dec 2016 21:29

Champion · 251 comments
Sanglorian wrote

(...)
In terms of game design, I think having a Normal type doesn't add to the choices a player has. A player can already pursue a balanced strategy by having tuxemon of all five types on their team. Including a Normal type tuxemon on your team isn't any more balanced or neutral than having a mixed team.

What do other people think?

Tamashi approves


We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when. But I know we'll meet again some sunny day!

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By xirsoi 10 Dec 2016 23:08

Champion · 66 comments

If this is the direction we want to take the elements, then it needs to be much more clear in the monster designs. Right now, they almost universally follow the western concept of an elemental creature. The Fire types are literally on fire. The Wood types are at least partially plant creatures, the Metal types are all robots, etc.

If we are going to treat them as metaphors, we need to actually do that. Otherwise we are limiting our idea space.

Based on the link sanglorian gave, Pairagrin would be a Wood type (nature and animals).


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By Alchemist 3 Jan 2017 12:59

New member · 6 comments

Right, there is a subtle difference between elemental appearance and themeing, especially when going from the Greek concept to the Chinese concept. Care should be taken to differentiate the types appropriately in design. A theme that encompasses so much could be difficult to differentiate.

Metal, for example, also encompasses Undeath and psychic powers. How would one understand that for mechanics and lore purposes, the zombie, wizard and tank are all the same element? What is there to bridge that gap? That's not to say it can't be done, but it is tricky. Careful attention to secondary types could do it- for example, ALL undead are also part poison?   But then, this means that all undead-themed teams would have to be monotype, which limits design space.

Edit- maybe this was what was implied and I missed it,  but what if the five primary elements were like central element schools, with subtypes for creatures beneath that?

so, a trainer of the Wood school could use animals and plants, and plant-animals and wind-plants. The "Animal" type would be it's own thing, as would the "Plant" type and "wind" type, and they could mix. But at their core, they are part of the Wood type and have some things in common. Maybe they all share the same resistances, but the weaknesses of the subtypes differ?

I understand that five types are meant to reduce bloat and this concept does the opposite of that. Just spitballing.

Last edited by Alchemist (3 Jan 2017 13:13)

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By Sanglorian 4 Jan 2017 00:31

Champion · 491 comments

Hi Alchemist,

Thanks for sharing these thoughts.

I think the best way to approach this is to use different techniques, morphs, etc., to give different categories a distinct character.

For example, you could have a pool of moves named after dragons - Dragon's Breath, Dragonclaw, Dragonnade, Drake Dive, etc. - that would only be available to tuxemon that have a dragon quality to them.

Or all robots could morph in the same way, giving that category a defining feature.

Types are already a little more varied than they seem, because you have:

* Tuxemon with one type (Wood, Fire, Earth, Water, Metal)
* Tuxemon with two types (20 options) (this already creates a number of different weakness/resistance sets)

And you have

* Techniques with one type
* Techniques with two types (this already creates a number of different strong/weak sets)

And then you can combine them. For example, you could have a tuxemon of one type with techniques that all come from a different type.

On the technique spreadsheet you can see under "MultiType" that there's already room in the design space for Ice (Earth-Water), Electricity (Fire-Earth), Fungus (Earth-Wood), Magic (Fire-Metal), etc.

How does this look?

Last edited by Sanglorian (4 Jan 2017 00:33)